$$$ Koffee With Karan $$$

Karan's guest this week are an extremely special couple. She is an actor par excellence… in fact almost an institution. From path breaking alternate cinema to plausible mainstream… she's been there… she's done that! He on the other hand ruled the roost in the 70s. The Salim-Javed writing duo gave dignity and stature to writing in Indian cinema. He then went on to become an impeccable poet and lyricist. Meet Javed Akhtar and Shabana Azmi in this very interesting episode.

Karan: I am very nervous today because I'm feeling compelled to sound very clever and intellectual and very social… socially relevant!
Shabana Azmi: And I am feeling very nervous because I am compelled to be very frothy and light and happy!

Karan: You both have opinions that you like to express… you're not afraid to express them. You both are individualistic in your own way and yet you have had a tremendous marriage. A marriage based on friendship. How have these 23 years been?
Shabana Azmi: I think we meet so rarely that, that is the reason for the success of the marriage. But also because I think we share a worldview, we belong to similar backgrounds and because we are friends, more than anything else.

Karan: Well I try to project that in all my films that friendship is the basis of love. Of course, slightly cheesily at times but, basically do you think that's what kept the marriage ticking… the friendship that you share with each other?
Javed Akhtar: I suppose so. Ultimately any relationship … marriage carries a lot of baggage… this word carries a lot of baggage… husband and wife have collected a lot of moss while rolling down the mountain of time. But the fact that 2 people can live happily only if they respect each other… they care for each other… they respect for each other's space and individuality and help each other flourish. Otherwise if one is living or flourishing or growing at the cost of the other, the relationship may survive because of many other reasons but it won't be an ideal or happy marriage situation.

Karan: But there is never an ideal situation. There are compromises made at both ends.
Javed Akhtar: No! Compromises are not against ideal. An ideal situation is when there are very happy compromises.
Shabana Azmi: I think marriage is an everyday adjustment but I don't think society prepares us for that. You know they have this rosy picture ke aise hone wala hain and you never need to work towards it… but I think you need to work towards it

Karan: Do you have to work towards it all the time?
Shabana Azmi: Not consciously… but I think it's good to be aware. You can't take it for granted. In our case we can't because we never meet.

Karan: Why? You'll are both that busy?
Javed Akhtar: Yes!

Karan: So basically it's a phone marriage!
Shabana Azmi: And we meet at airports once in a while!
Javed Akhtar: And what did you mean by 'not consciously'. So whatever you've done for me haven't been conscious efforts? I thought that you had thought about them.
Shabana Azmi: (Laughs)

Karan: Do you'll agree on things? Like your opinion on films? Do you both have the same opinions?
Javed Akhtar: No, no, no!

Karan: Because once Shabanaji saw a film that didn't do very well and she came and said, 'Bhai, the bad news for this film is that I have liked it!'
Shabana Azmi: There are director friends of mine who live in terror when I see a preview because if I've liked it, it's really doomsday for the film. That is standard…

Karan: And do you'll fight at home about your opinions on films, songs, things…
Javed Akhtar: We have ultimately reconciled to the fact that we do not agree on many things. If people are totally similar then there is no point in living together because one is enough and if people are totally different then there is no point in living together because you won't be able to live together. So you need certain similarities and certain dissimilarities and this tension is interesting.

Karan: Which is the one big fight you have had over a film or a political situation... Something because of which there was war at home?
Javed Akhtar: There was a film in which Shabana was the leading lady- Ek Pal. It was made by Kalpana Lajmi. It was appreciated by many people but I didn't like it. They thought that it was about women empowerment but it was not my definition of women empowerment, their individuality and their assertion.
Shabana Azmi: The good thing is that Javed is truly a feminist. He is a confident enough feminist, not to want to be politically correct. He genuinely feels it.

Karan: Sometimes has the presence of mediocrity ever upset you? Like I remember a hysterical story which I want you to tell us again about how you were going to do a South Indian film and you were meant to play a mentally challenged individual?
Shabana Azmi: How did you get to know that story? (Laughs). Well I was doing a special appearance. It was a three-day part and I went on the sets and he was a south Indian film director who was ready with the scene. I told him, I need to ask you a couple of questions and he said fine. So he said "Madam, she's mad!", so I said, 'What madness does she suffer from? Is it psychosis, is it schizophrenia, is it neurosis?' and as I asked every question I saw him becoming paler and paler and he looked completely shocked and he said, "Madam, just play filmi-mad!" So I said, "What does that mean?" and he said, "It means nothing madam. It only means that you laugh HA HA HA HA and then start crying! That is filmi-mad"

Karan: But Shabanaji what made you ask him this question. How did you think there was any sense of plausibility in that situation or that film or that character?
Shabana Azmi: But I really, sincerely thought that if I knew what kind of madness she was suffering from, it would help my performance. I genuinely felt that, kya karoo! I have to tell you another story. I was working with Sanjay Dutt many years ago. He used to be very busy and had three shootings he was coming from and all. And I remember telling the director, 'I think this question isn't relevant because last time I said that!" and Sanjay would say, "You want to win an Oscar in this performance only? I have to go Shabanaji! Ma'am please let us go!"

Karan: Those were the three-shift days! Javedsaab you have done some brilliant writing of course as a screenplay writer and as a poet and lyricist… has there been any strange incident faced.. Anything hilarious?
Javed Akhtar: Oh yes! Oh yes! You know when I came into the film industry I was trying to become a scriptwriter… It was very difficult to get appointments and time from directors and producers… even a minor producer wouldn't give time. Ultimately I found some kind of connection with a producer-director Babubhai Bhanji. So he said "Alright, I have heard you are a good writer and you have written some script. I'll listen to it!" So I gave him a detailed narration and he heard it with total attention and there was a long pause. Ultimately I had to ask him, "Sir, what do you think?" Those times 'darling' was the word… men were called 'darling'.

Karan: It was a very Punjabi expression in the industry.
Javed Akhtar: So he said, "Darling, kahani to teri acchi hain! Lekin ismein ek risk hain." So I asked him, "kya risk hain, sir?" so he said, "Nahi, mein soch raha tha, yeh kahani kisi picture mein aaii nahi hain!" So this was the risk! This was my first narration to a film producer. But I learnt a lesson. I saw to it that I never write a story that has never come before!" (Laughs)

Karan: You mean originality had no place at all?
Javed Akhtar: This was the defect! And exactly the same thing happened when I started writing lyrics. My first film was Silsila. Incidentally the hero of the film was a poet. My second film was Saath Saath. Again by some kind of coincidence, the hero was a poet. So obviously if the hero is a poet, you would write poetic sort of songs. And for many years, in spite of the fact that both the films had extremely successful music, I did not get work as a lyricist because they used to say, "usse gaana mat likhana, woh gaane mein poetry likh deta hain!"

Karan: And then you wrote possibly the most commercial song of the time - Ek, do, teen. I think it was the first item number.
Javed Akhtar: And then 'Kehte hain mujhko hawa hawai'. And then they said, 'Haan yeh sirf shaayri nahi likhta hain!"

Karan: Shabanaji, Javedsaab is a man of such beautiful words. Is he romantic at home, with you?
Shabana Azmi: Can I bust the myth once and for all? There is a complete myth, because there are these lovely girls who come up to me and say, "He writes such romantic poetry, such romantic songs, he must be terribly romantic!" he has not a bone of romance in him and he's done nothing vaguely romantic that wooed me, except one thing… This was before we were married. We were passing by a flower shop and I said, 'What lovely flowers!', and he stopped the car and he bought the entire florist shop and we just had a small Fiat car. He stuffed it all over and we went to wherever we were going, full of flowers. That's not the end. After that a couple of days later, we had a fight and so he sends me a note with flowers saying, 'Usi makaam par kal mujhko dekhke tanha, bahut udaas huye phool bechne wale!' I was completely floored. My mother told me to beware of poets. She was married to my father who was also a poet. She used to say, "Ek baar phase, to phir phase rehte hain!"
Shabana Azmi: You know there is one question always people ask me. Your father was a poet, your husband is a poet, and your father-in-law was a poet. Do you write poetry? So I say, 'No, I provide the inspiration.'

Karan: And you collect recipes but you don't cook!
Shabana Azmi: How do you know that? You have done your research very very well!

Karan: But how can you collect and not cook?
Shabana Azmi: I have a passion for collecting recipes!
Javed Akhtar: Can I tell you something… sometimes she does cook!

Karan: (Laughs) and then you have to say what when you have to eat it?
Javed Akhtar: I eat it! I love her! (Laughs)

Karan: Farhan, How do you perceive them as a couple?
Farhan Akhtar: They seem extremely happy for many many years now. It's fantastic!

Karan: Javedsaab and you almost have like a healthy friendship. The interaction is almost hysterical, every time I've seen you'll together its like two friends chatting… warring maybe at times, maybe the conflicts. Seems like a friendship, which is tough when there is a generation gap.
Farhan Akhtar: Yeah I know! Shabana calls me like a chamcha of Pa because I keep laughing at all his jokes but I don't think I'm the only one. All of us do!
Javed Akhtar: You know so often people have told me… there is only one person in this world who is funnier than you and that is your son!

Karan: He is hysterical. I have seen him, his imitations, his performances are hysterical. But you have this great camaraderie with your father!
Farhan Akhtar: Yeah! Absolutely!

Karan: And do you feel the generation gap at all?
Farhan Akhtar: No! Not really, I feel comfortable talking to Pa and Shabana.
Javed Akhtar: Actually the age difference is not much anyway. (Laughs)
Farhan Akhtar: I'm actually 62, but I look quite young!

Karan: How do you perceive them, Shabanaji?
Shabana Azmi: You know the first time that Farhan came and stayed in our house, it amazed me. Because here was this eight year old child sleeping in a posture exactly like his father. There was this eight year old child and they were absolutely identical.
Javed Akhtar: You mean, with closed eyes? (Laughs)
Shabana Azmi: There are so many things… and they also have a very healthy equation. I think Javed respects Farhan a great deal and I think Farhan values Javed's opinion. Farhan is a sensible young man!

Karan: Little controversial question. What was Pa's reaction when you told him you want to remake Don?
Farhan Akhtar: He asked me if I was sure I wanted to do it because of the cult status of the original film and there would be a lot of comparisons. When he was sure I was doing it for my love for the original film, he was very supportive.

Karan: Do you feel the generation tussle? Do you think when he is writing for you, you find yourself fighting over words?
Farhan Akhtar: Honestly, lets say when we are working and Pa is writing lyrics…there are certain words you are just not used to hearing. For example… even in the song Dil Chahta Hain, the word chamkeele… for me… the association is very detergent. When you read it out it sounds very strange. So I told him chamkeele sounds a little weird and he said trust me it's a word that's not been used before. But I think there is a certain understanding. There is nobody I think who can express a thought the way he does it… in a song. We find a balance somewhere!

Karan: Can you be objective about Farhan's work? Can you be critical?
Javed Akhtar: Yes! I give him my feedback. Whether he agrees or not, is another story. Or whatever he agrees with or doesn't, that is his choice.
Shabana Azmi: But when you saw Dil Chahta Hain, you said it would be a cult film!
Javed Akhtar: Yeah!

Karan: What happened when Don released. It was a box office success, but it had a very mixed response. What was your opinion?
Javed Akhtar: You know it was totally understandable. Anybody who was under 35, loved the film. Anybody above 35, had certain reservations because they had their own nostalgia and it is totally understandable.

Karan: What did you think, Shabanaji?
Shabana Azmi: I thought it was very stylish. It was extremely stylish. I love Farhaan's work.
Farhan Akhtar: I remember the first time Shabana saw it. She said, 'Very good… but what happened?' (Laughs)
Shabana Azmi: But I had not seen the original.
Farhan Akhtar: I said, thank you… I have succeeded in telling a story most effectively.

Karan: You have also opened a can of worms Farhan by remaking an old classic. You remade Don. You gave it your own vision and executed it in your own way. How do you react to the remake of Sholay, which I believe is the mother of all mainstream films? How do you react to that being made again by Ram Gopal Verma?
Farhan Akhtar: Honestly I don't have any reaction towards it. I will watch it when it comes out because it's something which is intriguing and I would like to watch it and see what he's done with it. He's also a very intelligent filmmaker, to give him his due. And I'm sure he will do something interesting with the story. I look forward to seeing it but as of now I don't have any pre-conceived notion of what the film will be like.
Javed Akhtar: I am not against remaking per say. 'Departed' which just got an Oscar is a remake. 'Cape Fear' was a remake. 'Ten Commandments' was a remake. 'Mother India' was a remake of 'Aurat'. In a way 'Mughal-e-Azam' was a remake of 'Anarkali', in a way. Obviously it was a different interpretation but the same story. I am not against remakes per say, but I don't think in Hollywood anyone would try to remake 'Gone with the Wind' or 'Godfather' or 'Benhur'. Because when you remake a film, why do you remake a film? Because you feel you can give it a better interpretation or better production value or a better performance. Some films take the maximum, the optimum from the available script and you cannot improve on that. I think 'Sholay' is one of them. But at the same time, I have no problem with this so-called remake. I don't even know if it's a remake or not because the film is made in a city or whatever.

Karan: Anyway it's called Ram Gopal Verma ki Aag.
Javed Akhtar: Whatever. In a way it is flattering because the film was made 32 years back in 1975. In so many years minor, bit characters of the film have been used in comedies, sitcoms, advertisements, ad films, in plays and so on. So if one more person is basking in our glory we don't have any problems.